S6 EP25 - Freya's Story - Finding The White Room!

Freya Maberley's family are all neurodivergent. Her siblings/parents and grand parents were all undiagnosed. She was diagnosed ADHD at 53, and she is Autistic too, and proud! 

Her brother is undiagnosed AuDHD and her home growing up was dictated by anger and violence. She was always considered the 'normal" child in the family, but her high sensitivity meant that she became the responsible one, taking on the people pleaser role of the family dynamic.

Freya's son is diagnosed AuDHD, dyslexic, dysgraphic. Her daughter undiagnosed AuDHD. Raising them was a constant battle of advocacy, being gaslit by the system, her own struggle to accept the diagnosis.

Freya has created a technique called The White Room. A visualization that helps a person reclaim what was lost in interactions with others.  It's a kind of soul retrieval, without needing to be spiritual. It's a very grounded exercise, that once a person knows how to do it, they can do the visualization by themselves. 

Freya is working as a Therapist (Psychology, Social Work, Counseling and Animal Assisted Psychotherapy) in Victoria, Australia.

Insta: @freyas_farm_ballarat

Facebook: Freya's Farm: Animal Assisted Therapy

Tiktok: @freyas_farm

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Welcome to another episode of Well, that fucked me up. I am your host, Luke Colson. Today we're joined by Freya Mabelie. Hi Freya.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 1:41

I'm good. You're calling from Australia and it's two o'clock in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

It's two o'clock in the morning and about minus one. Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Whereabouts are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

I'm in northern Victoria, so I'm up in the mountains.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Right. So it gets cold. It gets cold there.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

A bit chilly.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Midwinter right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Yeah. So here in LA it's been gorgeous. It's been um about 80, it's been about 30 degrees every day for the last month.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

So make me jealous.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

I know. But then you get your lovely summers, don't you? So um my far all my family on my dad's side are Australians, so I've spent a lot of time with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yeah. Love it. Well, it's late for you there. So let's crack on. Thank you so much for coming on uh the podcast. Every week we have a guest who comes on and we talk about surviving life-changing events and experiences and where that got us and what how we are today, what we're doing today, how it affected us. And um, it normally covers trauma, it normally covers things we went through that kind of knocked us off the rails or knocked us off our journey or j jolted us into a different path. Um, I've had a whole bunch of trauma through my life, and I I let's say I love I love that. I didn't love it at the time, but I love it. Now that I understand how it made me who I am, and we talk to guests about anything from emotional to relationships to toxicity in the workplace to physical to disabilities to ailments, illnesses to diagnosis, to mental health. Uh, can be a one-off event, can be a series of events, can be stuff that happened in your childhood, can be stuff that's still happening now. But what we love to focus on is the journey through Freya. So, with that, where would you like to begin?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Oh, good lord. Um, that's a very good question. I think the most important thing in my journey has been understanding my neurodivergence.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

I love that. Good place to start. Same here.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah. Ah, I I figured you were probably at least ADHD when I saw your videos.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

If I'm going to be able to do that, mainly and only. Yeah, mainly and only, but you know, um that coupled with um like ludicrous anxiety, like you know, general anxiety disorder of the highest order, and then throw in some childhood trauma, and yeah, mix it all up together and see what comes out, you know. And and what about you? And what what was how did that yeah?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Well, I didn't I didn't actually realise that there was anything that I needed to work on until I was in my mid-20s.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

Well, and I I think that's quite normal, isn't it? I don't think we're well meant to be self-aware, are we? A lot of us.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

No, but in my family, I was the normal one. So I had two other siblings and my older brother, I was the youngest. My older brother is actually it's the other way around. My son is virtually a carbon copy of my older brother. Um and my older brother is undiagnosed, but definitely autistic, ADHD, dyslexic, dysgraphic, you know, the poor guy. He had a lot to deal with. So because I'm similar to you, ADHD is my predominant thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Um, I was the normal one. I wasn't dyslexic. I did well at school, I was an overachiever, I was um, you know, the perfectionist, I was incredibly independent, and so I just thought I was, you know, hit and goals.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Some of those, it's interesting because excuse me, some of those good traits. I'll edit my coughing and spluttering out perhaps. Um, some of those good traits, especially the overachieving. I mean, I've had guests come on, and that's been the whole conversation because overachieving in itself can be rooted in all sorts, can't it? Because that's not necessarily normal.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

No, no, and perfectionism, I mean, one of the things that has really, really helped me massively in my journey is understanding rejection sensitive dysphoria. You know, actually doing this with you right now is terrifying. Oh, good. Well, that's it's fine. No, it's all good. Terrifying's good. Good. No, but it's because putting myself out there to be observed by others means I'm opening myself up for criticism.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

And that really, really impacted on what I would and would not do.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

In my younger years.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

And that's there's an element of people pleasing around that too, I think. I mean, I was I was the worst. I was the absolute worst people pleaser. And when I look back on the things that I did because I thought that was what was gonna make me friends or keep my friends or make people like me, I'm like, what? How exhausting. And what I've learned now, and we do as we get go on through life and we start to wisen up. I don't want to do something, I'm not gonna do it anymore. And if I don't want to go to a party because it's on the other side of town and it's with people that I really like, uh no thanks. Because I was the one that says yes, and then I get there and I find out everyone else has said no anyway. And I'm like, well, what am I doing here?

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Exactly, exactly. Um, so yeah, that was that was a really big chunk of um me finding stuff out, but that didn't happen until sort of three or four years ago. You know, I didn't find out that I was um ADHD uh until I was 52. Wait, amazing. As is often the case with parents who were late diagnosed, it was my son. I was on the lookout for the dyslexia and the dysraphia because of my brother. Yes, my brother, his autism was never ever identified. And still isn't? Um look, we're we're one of those families where some of us are diagnosed, some of us are diagnosed, but we know there's more, some of us are undiagnosed, but we're pretty sure the whole family is neurospicy. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Neurospicy. That's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

And does he know is he aware though now, your older your brother? Yes. Yes, and I think that's the whole family is, yeah. That's like some sort of relief as well. Like when I figured out my ADHD and remember all the times, for me it's sounds, right? I can't I can't process more than one sound at a time. And if there's a background sound, that becomes the foreground sound, and everything else in front of me just becomes like noise. And so as I was growing up and into my 20s, and when I had kids, I couldn't understand why a kid crying, someone talking, the saucepan boiling, and my now ex-wife trying to have a conversation with me. I I felt like I needed to murder somebody in the nicest possible way. I would just drop everything and I'd just have to walk out the house, and I'd be having this kind of panic attack. And people are like, What's wrong with you? And I was like, Well, I don't know what's wrong with me, but that was overwhelming. That was I was and so now when we go to restaurants, even like my girlfriend and I, and she we've been together for years and years, and she's extra neuro spicy, extra, extra. We have to watch where we sit because this fan is going to take up my entire evening, or this clicking here, right? And I didn't know that before, but now we can pre-plan and pre-determine. I'm not gonna have a weird mood swing, and we look at each other sometimes where we go, we go, this is I'm overstimulated, I've got to get the fuck out of here. And you know what? What that's so great to be able to just I'm not gonna have a good time here. This is gonna hurt me. It's marvelous, isn't it? I'm out, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah. And prepping for things, it's like don't go to the restaurant without checking out what it is before you get there, so there's no surprises. Correct. Um, you know, all of that stuff. I think that is the most amazing thing about understanding yourself better. Um but going back to the people-pleasing things, I I think the other side of um the ADHD for me is the high sensitivity. It's that walking into a room and feeling what every other person in the room is feeling and having to work out what's yours and what's theirs, and keeping everybody happy is absolutely essential for my well-being.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

That's exhausting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's look, I ended up studying psychology after um high school because I didn't know what to do and I couldn't get into drama school. And my mum said, Well, what about psychology? And I went, all right then. So that sort of put me onto the the helping people path, but it was also about trying to understand myself better. Um, and the big thing for me when I did find out that you know I was ADHD was as well as the relief, as much as there was relief, there was always this massive grief as well. Yeah, because you know, I'd gotten to 52 without knowing. Yeah, and looking back on it, there were four failed relationships, jobs that I couldn't stay in for beyond more than two years because I got so bored. Yeah, you know, there was all of this stuff, and I was like, if I'd known all of this earlier, of course, what actually would my life have been like? Yeah, you know, I've achieved a lot and I could have achieved so much more, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Maybe that's the thing, right? You don't know, and I think we we I think we have always have to come to this like resolution of like this is where I am, and I'm here because of everything that happened, and that was my story up till now, and this is my story, and this is this will continue to be my story, and that's why I kind of latch on to all the horrible things that happened to me, and I think, well, how I feel today is pretty good, and I wonder if I would feel this way if none of that stuff had happened, or if I would have found out all this stuff about myself if some of those traumas hadn't happened. But for me, the the overthinking, the people pleasing, the ADHD, the audio overwhelming sensitivity, the anxiety, the panic, and my upbringing, my childhood and my parents like parental dysfunction led me to alcohol because it was like I gotta stop the noise. Got to stop the noise. And that was horrific. I mean, that was that nearly that nearly brought me that nearly was resulted in the end for me. And that so for me, what you're talking about, this semi-regret, is I was doing that because of my mental health, and I was doing that for all the things that had built up and made me who I was. I didn't know that. So if I had known that, would that have stopped me from becoming a full-blown alcoholic? Would that have saved my marriage? Would that have but at the same time? Who the fact knows and it doesn't matter, doesn't it? Doesn't matter. Like everything's squared away now. Me and my ex-wife and I are friends and great co-parents. My kids are in the next room over there, and you know, and and life is good, and talking about this stuff is my favorite thing to do in the whole world because everyone is going through some stuff. And if we can if someone's listening to this and they're like, well, hold on a second, what's ADHD? Or like, well, that sounds familiar, or maybe that's what I that's awareness, is a huge part of it. Because people don't know, and people still think there's stigma talking about it. I I just blurt from the rooftops. I've got mental health problems, I suffer from anxiety and depression, I take absolut medication for it. I was an alcoholic, now I'm recovered for seven years. Like, I love that shit. It's like what a fucking story, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

So well, it's the it's the light at the end of the tunnel, isn't it? Yeah, and particularly for people who are still in the tunnel.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

100%.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

And that's the main reason why I reached out to you because I think there is a lot of crisis going on in the world right now, and I think a lot of people are really, really struggling. And um yeah, there's a lot in my work that I want to share freely and more publicly so that people have access to it should they want to utilize it to help themselves.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

So and and let's let's get into that, Freya, and and again, just tell us how so you you took you went into psychology, and then is what is this whole idea about helping other people? I know you've got some stuff that we're gonna talk about in a minute. Did that come recently, or is this something you've been building for a long time, or was this co put together with your kind of ADHD diagnosis? Like, where did this all come from?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

I look, I was that kid in the playground that was always looking after the younger kids, and I think part of part of who I am is just that natural empathy. If I see something else suffering or someone else suffering, I'm like, no, I want to help you feel better.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Um I think that's a lovely trait. It's a nice way to be. Yeah. Kindness, kindness above everything else, kindness and compassion.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

That's that's one of the I listen, I'm a huge fan of that, and I try and live by that these days, and I don't respond well to people that aren't kind. And I and then I just kind of then I just think to myself, well, that's fine. And I and often those people uh are going through stuff or are in the middle of stuff or have been through stuff, and they'll they'll never change. You can't change someone unless they want to start the change from within. I know some people that have I know someone who's autistic and has one of the functions of his autism is no empathy whatsoever. He doesn't understand, just doesn't understand what that is. And so it's very it's very interesting. Well, he probably does, but the way he talks is does doesn't seem to regard how he's saying it or something, it's something like that, you know. And then you when you explain, he goes, Oh god, no, that's not that's not what I meant. We're like, Well, that okay, because that's how it sounded, you know, and it's so funny, like human traits are insane, aren't they? So, yeah, sorry, carry on.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

No, no, no, that's all good. Um, so yeah, so then after the psychology, I did a a bachelor of science and came out of it very disillusioned because um I'm a much more touchy-feely, follow my gut um kind of person, and they were all like, no, if you can't prove it, you can't use it.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

No, fair enough. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Um it's not bullshit. I take it back, it's not bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

I'm with you. For me, I know, I know, I know. That's your that's your reaction to it.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah, yeah, that was my reaction to it. And yes, I you know, I'm gonna put a disclaimer out there. Evidence-based practice is good, yeah, but I think I think um psychology can be too reductionist, and I think it can try and reduce the person to their symptoms, and that you mm anyway. Yeah, it can work for some people, and to be fair, I think the same goes for physical medicine as well, like Western medicine.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Absolutely. So, like there's a time and a place if I've got um bronchitis, I'm gonna go and get some antibiotics if it's like the if it's the one that antibiotics kills. And the antibiotics are gonna help me because I know they are.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

But if there's other things or there's something and it's or it's right, acute chronic pain disorder, or my rheumatoid arthritis, or my something in my neck that's been hurting for 10 years and no one could diagnose. Well, I'm gonna find some alternative options. I'm gonna try some acupuncture, I'm gonna try some this, that, or the other, and that's yeah, and and for five percent of people this works, for five percent of this people this works, and for 90% of people who are going to see their traditional doctors, that's not working anyway. So and and I think the same goes for mental health. So I'm interested to hear what your what your sort of technique is, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Um look, my I think eclectic is probably the best.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

Good words, like it. I live in Venice, California. Speaking of eclectic, by the way. Eclectic, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah, you know what I mean. Um, so I have training in all sorts of different areas and ADHD, I'm always wanting to learn, I'm constantly out there going, Oh, what's this new thing and what's that new thing? And I'm the kind of person that will try it on myself first because I will only recommend something through experience. Um, so so anyway, the look back in the 90s when I had given up on clinical, you know, clinical type psychology and had moved much more into searching the spiritual side of things. So I was finding out about Buddhism, I was exploring Wicca, I was um looking at anything and everything. And at the time, visualization and meditation was seen as being very left of center and very woo-woo, but of course, now yeah, it's much more mainstream and acceptable. So yeah, it was, I think it was just after my son had been born. So when I was in my early 30s, and I was doing lots of sort of different meditation experimentation type stuff. Not nothing illegal.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Nothing culty, nothing culty, no, god no, nothing culty at all. And I was like, oh, I've joined the cult. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, no, I'm far too uh far too independent for that.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

I know, and that's what they all say, Freya. That's what they all say, but yeah, no, fair enough. And you know, just and I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but I do like to talk as we go. But my some well, growing up, my mum had a friend who was a yoga instructor, and and even back then yoga was considered woo-woo. Isn't that crazy? Like 35, 40 years ago, it's like she's bonkers, she does yoga, and you're like she does yoga. I mean, speaking of Venice, California, it's like every single other person is walking down the street with a yoga mat now, you know. So times are changing.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

We've come a long way, we really have a long way, yeah. Yeah, um, and so it was through all of those different sort of personal explorations of stuff that um I came across uh a concept called soul retrieval. And I I don't know whether it's soul retrieval, um, you know, I don't even know really whether I believe in that particularly, but what appealed to me through my own experience was that when we have an interaction with somebody else that leaves us leaving less than, you know how you can come away from something feeling really bad.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Um and if you live with that, you know, if that's in your family home, that's gonna have a massive impact on you. I I sort of started thinking, okay, so what if we could what if there was a way that we could take that stuff back? And I'm a very visual person, and so through various sort of different I was actually trying to remember how I came up with this thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

And I think it was through um a Buddhist exercise where we had to go into a white neutral space and wish various people love and happiness. I think and you started with someone that you really, really liked, so it was really easy, and you went down the line and to someone that you really hated, and you had to try and do it to them and mean it. And and that particular exercise really, really stuck with me because I found it so hard.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

And you were just doing this like you were visualizing it, you were like doing it in your head, this process.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

In in your mind's eye, in your visual eye.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

It's funny because there's a there's an element to like, you know, I went into AA when I came out of when I was, I mean, I was at the end of my, I nearly, it was just horrible. And then I still go for the community here in Venice. I absolutely love all the people in in there. But you know, for me, the the whole 12-step of it and the whole like big book of it, I really struggle with, but that's a whole different story. But there's a part of the AA process, the fourth step, where you're it making you're figuring out where you've done wrong or who's done wrong to you, and what your part in all of those relationships were. And so there's that speaks to me slightly because you're the things the things that you hold on to are sometimes the things that can bring you down. So the resentments, right? And the bad juju you have with a boss or a colleague or something that he did or she did to you, yeah. That can drown you, that can be like a giant weight and throw you into the sea, right? And so that it's interesting when you were saying that because I was like, that sounds familiar. And it's like, well, that's obviously not in a white room and not meditating, but you write a list, you're like, This is and when you write the list, just in doing that, you're like, Yeah, well, this feels nice to get this out of my brain. But then similarly, you get down the list and you're like, I'm gonna have a really fucking hard time forgiving this person, or or I don't want to even put this motherfucker on the list, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

I'm not ready. I'm just not ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so yeah, so that happened. Um, and then I I I cannot remember, to be completely honest with you, Luke. I cannot remember how it happened, but I know I was using this with clients in the 90s.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Yeah, wow, very cool at that point.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, so basically, can I just quickly sort of go through the process with you?

SPEAKER_03 22:57

I won't interrupt you, go for it. So I'll try. I'll try anyway.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Interrupt away. It's okay. It's all relevant, it's all good. Okay, um, you're you're with friends. Uh so yeah, so the concept is that you imagine yourself in this neutral safe space, it's your space, so you are in control of whatever happens. And uh similar to what you were uh saying just then about the AA exercise, you imagine taking off or out of yourself whatever you are holding on to from a particular Particular relationship that no longer serves you. And that that's the key sentence. It you know, if if it's something with somebody and you still love them, because you know there are people who've hurt us and we still love them, that's fine. That if that love still serves in some way, that doesn't have to shift. But it's the other stuff. And then you imagine it on the ground in between you and the person that you're doing the exercise with. You then decide whether you want to wash it away or whether you want the other person to take it back. Sometimes it's really important that the other person takes it back, sometimes it's not.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Then the other person has to give back to you what they still have from that relationship, either what they took from you or what you gave them that goes on the ground between you. You clean it, you put it back into yourself in the spaces that were made from what you took out. That is basically it. It's so, so simple. But like if I can if I can share a little story with you, there was a lady that I worked with, um oh, I don't know, back in the I think it was 2011 or something like that. And she had one of the worst trauma histories that I had sat down with at that time. Um, and she came in and she she was a Christian and she was quite spiritual. So I kind of held back with this a little bit because I didn't know how it would fit with her beliefs. We got to the fourth session, I taught her how to do it. There was two weeks between that session and the next session, and she came back two weeks later and said, I've done everybody. Wow, I'm feeling fantastic. I don't need to come back. Well, and I've never seen her since.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

No way. Wait, seriously. Does the other the person you're doing it about have they have to you have to contact them? They have to be involved. No, no. Okay, got it. Right. I see.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

No, it's all in your imagination.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

I'd see perfect. Yeah, well, that makes really good sense. God, that's very I feel it's very I feel like a l just hearing about that technique I'd feel lighter, right? Because I know that's so lovely. Well, because I have worked very hard over the last so eight years to get rid of the things that are what I perceive to be why I was drinking and taking drugs alcoholically, right? And whether that's my father's behavior towards me when I was a kid, or the major traumatic event I had when I was 11 when I witnessed my friend die, or whether it was rejection. After that, I was awful at relationships, I didn't understand rejection. So the rejection that I would get. There were two or three moments with girlfriends, and the rejection was like the grief I had from when my friend died. So I had to process all of that. I couldn't split the two up. I I just rejection felt like death to me. So then what that did resulted in me shutting down all of my feelings, never getting hurt ever again, and being in control of who I loved and who I didn't love. And I'll I'll pull the strings of relationships. And I was fake basically faking my way through life because I'd cut off feeling.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

That's when I started drinking. You just can't cut off the bad stuff either. You cut off everything.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

And also, guess what? It's all still there, it's all still residing in you. So then I'm drinking on I'm drinking because I'm like, oh, I figured it out, but of course, inside I'm hurting subconsciously, I'm in deep, deep pain. No idea why. Drink, drink, drink, drink, drink. And then all came to a head eight years ago. A complete breakdown, nearly drank myself to death. My father died, and then I started the the journey to recovery, and to understand that these things are separate, these feelings are okay. This feeling of rejection passes, it's not it's not the same as grief. And by the way, grief is okay, and grief is allowed. And I hadn't done any of that.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah, but all of that is so much harder, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

For for men, particularly. Because you know, the number of emotions a man is allowed to feel is just about, you know, yeah, it seems that way.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Well, that's one of the reasons why I love doing this podcast, and when I like I love having guys on here as well. But so all of this stuff you're talking about, which is like for me, a lot of it was me, but for me also a lot of it was people and the way people I perceive someone to have treated me or rejected me or in an argument or maybe or belittled me, which reminded me of how my father used to speak to me. Once you start to figure all this shit out, and you start to understand the reason for why you're feeling like that, and it's you and only you who's putting these feelings onto yourself, no one else is at this time. This is all trauma. Yeah, yes, then I could start like gonna get rid of that one, and I get rid of that one. I mean, it's a long ass journey, but once you start to feel the reward of that lightening the load of all of that mental weight, it's quite a fucking good feeling, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

It's an amazingly good feeling, absolutely. Yeah, and I I think from what you're saying, I'd say that you're doing the first half.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Have you have you been able to get um, you know, through that process of making amends, did you get anything back from anybody that was helpful?

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, when I, you know, there's a couple of people I met up with, and then some people are funny, you know, it's like I s I because with with AA, you're meant to kind of do it in person, or if that's impossible, you write them an email or you send them a text and say, Have you got a moment to speak on the phone? Some people never responded. Yes, people are like, what are you talking about? Like, I I would like, oh, there was that time where I was drunk and I did this to you, and you and they're like, What I don't know what I do not remember what I don't remember, and that's been something that's been playing on my mind for 20 years, right? God, I wish I didn't had done that. What person can't even fucking remember? They don't know what I'm talking about, and that's been something that's been do you know what I mean? And that's when you realize okay, well, I'm take I'm taking that off the fucking list then, you know, I don't have to carry that one anymore, and then some, you know, and then some when I there's been like an admission of like bad like relationship or the way I've behaved in a relationship, there's been an acknowledgement, which is like, I really appreciate you sending that email, but also don't contact me again, you know, and that's fine. No, but that's fine as well. It's like yeah, that's true, you know, it's for me, it's for me, it's not for everyone else. So so, but yeah, and then that was a that was a while ago now, and and still like traits come up, right? Like we're on like the same as you, right? You're on this like later journey of finding out about yourself and the reasons why you are who you are and why you do the things you do and why you're traumatized how you were traumatized. We still get caught out, and it's that's gonna continue for the rest of our lives. There's still moments where I'm replaying a conversation in my mind, wishing I hadn't said this one word. And my girlfriend, she's very similar, she's she's on the spectrum, yeah. So she's uh she found out not that long ago that um that she has autism, and you know, and I mean I could have told you that when I met her, but all this stuff, and for her it was an epiphany, and she's like, Oh my god, this just explains so much, you know. But she her um ADHD and her autism has her like she has to rehearse conversations because she having a conversation doesn't come naturally to her. She has to she has to pre-meditate what someone might say in a conversation and how she'll then react to it because she calls in itself is exhausting, exhausting, so it's a mask almost everything, yeah. And then when she's done it and she's finished, she calls me and she tells me about it and asks me how I how she's done every conversation. And that's she's getting so much better and more confident, but that's exhausting as fuck for her. Masking, masking, masking, masking, masking, masking. Absolutely, and so now what she's realized is that people who don't appreciate her or don't understand her for who she is can go fuck themselves, which is actually basically absolutely we get to pick our tribe, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

We get a certain time in our life when we actually get to go, yeah, no, yeah, no, I think I can already feel you judge it. Yes, exactly. You you don't need to be in my cycle of friends.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

So, what do you do with your what's the technique called? Did you say it's called the white room? Did I just make that?

SPEAKER_00 32:03

So, yeah, so I just call it the white room visualization.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Um, and I've actually put some videos on socials um so that people can actually. So I've explained it in the video, but I've also then talked it through. So what I would do with the client ordinarily is once we'd gotten to the point that we'd identified people that they could definitely benefit from doing this with, um, it's a visualization that I will talk them through.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Um like a guided journey, like a guided meditation. But you're absolutely you kind of get in the zone and then you visualize talking to them, you visualize them being there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

You just you you walk into the well, you all you see yourself in the space. Yeah. And the other thing that's really important is that for people who really struggle to visualize, and there's a lot of them in the world, you it it can be a sensation, it can be you can feel what you're taking out, and you can feel that there's something else coming back. It doesn't have to be a really clear visual. Um, but yeah, so you don't talk. Yeah. Um for the people who have really, really hurt you, and if you're still afraid of them, we put them in a big perspex box, you know, like they have in courts for real criminals. Um, and no, there's no talking, the other person can't talk to you, you don't talk to them. It's purely and simply using the visual cortex, basically. And and by accessing that part of the brain, you're cutting out the language center. So you're actually accessing stuff from a deeper spot.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Um, which I think is why it works. Because a lot of people have said to me, Why, you know, why do you think it works? And I think it's because it accesses different areas of the brain. It's quite well recorded now that when we the brain can't tell the difference between what we imagine and what is real.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

That's been well established.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Which is why when we go over situations that have been bad for us, we have the same physical responses to it. So I think by imagining that this process is happening, our brain is going, oh, right, well, that that happened.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

That person actually gave me back whatever energetic thing it might have been. Yeah, you know, it might some people just see words. Some people say, Oh, I I got my confidence back, I got my trust of life back. One lassie talked about pulling out knives from her body, that was all the criticism that her father had thrown at her over the years.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Oh, I forget with that, I forget with that metaphor.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

So the imagery that comes out is almost as important as the process itself because it it really shows you. There was another woman who talked about just having piles and piles and piles of rope that she just had to keep shoving into the middle. And when she came out of the process when it was finished, she said, I I constantly tie myself up in knots with that person. So the imagery comes out in the ways that these people have influenced us and impacted on our lives.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

So yeah. And how long does that let's say I wanted to do a session with you regarding my father? How long is that gonna take? Like what do what prep work do I have to do first? Like homework.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

You don't have to do you don't have to do any homework. Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

And then so how long would do I how long is that how less homework the better. Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Um if I if I knew you, if you were if you were someone who'd had a few sessions with me and I knew you, yeah, the process would take a maximum of 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Usually it takes between 10 and 15. It's so quick.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Um, and then it's really helpful to either be able to talk to someone about what happened afterwards or to journal it to write it down. Because going back to the centers of the brain again, by talking about it or writing it, you're then using the language centers. So you're taking it from the right side of the brain to the left side of the brain, and and it's just a whole brain thing. Yeah. Which is what that's how we process trauma by the way.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Which is funny enough, part of the the fourth-step thing as well. You know, you're writing everything out because you're you're making it a real thing. Gosh. Fascinating. And where can Freya, where can our just to wrap up and so we make sure people can find you, where do we find you, Freya? You're on social media, do you have a website?

SPEAKER_00 36:19

So um, I don't have a website because I'm ADHD and I can't organise my ass into making one.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

That's the best thing I've ever heard in my entire life. I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Um, but I am on TikTok and Insta and The Book of Face. Um Freya's Farm. If people Google Freya's Farm, it should come up. Each one of those has a slightly different thinking.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Well, so don't worry about the nuances because I'm gonna put them on the show notes. And the show notes, so if you're listening to this podcast, go to the show notes, as per always. There will be links to Freya's social media, not her website, because she's not organized. She's never got one.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

And um, I'm not organized enough, it's true.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Great admission. I love it. And um, you can find Freya and get in touch if um you want to say hi, book a session. Um, anything else we missed, Freya? Or all go.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Well, the only other thing is that as long as they're not doing like the main offenders, they can do this by themselves. They don't have to spend any money that they can get they can watch the video, they can go through it themselves, as long as it's somebody who is safe for them and they're not going to send them up, you know, into an emotional breakdown. Um, the same, the the semi-dangerous people they can do by themselves, and that's the whole point of me sort of contacting you. I just want people to have this tool free of charge because everybody's short of cash. Um, and it could make a big difference.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

What a lovely thing to say and do, Freya. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a wonderful and relatable conversation. Um, and say hi to my Australian family over there, Freya Mabel.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Because I know them, of course. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

It's like when I say I'm in from England in LA, people go, Oh, do you know um, do you know Gary? I'm like, probably. You know, Australia's a little bit bigger, so a bit more spread out. All right. Thanks so much, Freya. Well, thank you.